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I Hate Coaching
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04-02-2009, 01:44 AM
(This post was last modified: 04-02-2009 01:59 AM by Siraaj.)
Post: #1
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I Hate Coaching
Alright, maybe hate is a strong word, but I know I've received A LOT of complaints about the nascent Muslim coaching industry. On the other end of it, I know some of you believe it's the solution to a lot of the problems plaguing the Muslims.
This is my invite to both sides to post their thoughts openly on this topic, and really get out there once and for all what it is you dislike, detest, etc about the whole biz as well as what you like. As for myself, I think the intent is good, but I think the way it's being implemented is very bad. Siraaj PS - and I'm not a coach, nor am I going to solicit you for anything during or after this post 
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04-02-2009, 04:17 PM
Post: #2
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RE: I Hate Coaching
(04-02-2009 01:44 AM)Siraaj Wrote: Alright, maybe hate is a strong word, but I know I've received A LOT of complaints about the nascent Muslim coaching industry. On the other end of it, I know some of you believe it's the solution to a lot of the problems plaguing the Muslims. 32 Views and no replies? I sense fear in revealing oneself - constructive dialogue on both ends will enable both understanding of what the practice entails as well as criticisms that can change it for the better - so who's game to start? Siraaj |
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04-03-2009, 02:33 AM
Post: #3
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RE: I Hate Coaching
I'm not a huge fan, but that's just me. If it works for you, then go for it, inshaa Allaah. To each his own.
From my experiences with life coaches trained under sh muhammad alshareef, here's what I can gather: 1. the marketing was a lil too strong/pushy for me. 2. everyone sounded like sh muhammad. there can only be 1 sh muhammad... I didn't see enough originality. 3. it's marketed as a personalized service, but when I received all of the information (from various coaches) I felt like my name was being plugged into a bunch of documents. (all looked similar) 4. probably the most important factor for me, financially there were a few other priorities that I needed to take care of... so I couldn't afford the service anyway. |
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04-03-2009, 07:50 AM
Post: #4
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RE: I Hate Coaching
Ok I will bite. I have a few reservations about life coaching, so i'll try to formulate my thoughts.
Before I begin though, I wanted to get something off my chest that I was thinking about. The "nascent Muslim coaching" crowd is really limited to the AlMaghrib crowd - obviously because of Shaykh Muhammad AlShareef. That makes it tricky to mention any real criticisms, because any criticism you make will almost always be aimed (whether intentional or not) at someone who is either a friend or someone you respect. Before making a criticism I almost feel like I have to say "I say this despite x,y,z of my friends being certified life coaches" - its like "im not racist, i have black friends" In any case, here are some of my observations (in no particular order) 1) The concept of coaching itself is still not clear. Why should I pay $xxx for someone to help me "achieve my goals." It just sounds like too much of a pie in the sky type of routine. I agree with the need for having external help to get you organized, to get you on track, to help you lucidly get your thoughts/projects organized, but I just have a hard time believing I should pay a significant chunk of money to someone to basically just give me general advice that I probably already know. 2) Spam Marketing. There. I said it in public. Every time I hear about this, I feel like I am getting spammed like a late night infomercial selling me junk real estate. Even down to the emails, website set up, marketing techniques - everything looks and feels exactly the same as those "make money quick" websites that rip you off. There is aggressive marketing (which I can respect) but then there is going over the line as well. I agree 100% with the comment above that the marketing is all basically cloned. I want to see some unique strategy, show me how you can help. But for everyone to adopt the exact same pitch, the exact same marketing technique, the exact same everything - it leaves you to wonder how much "coaching" you can receive from someone so unoriginal. And again, I cannot overemphasize how much the "spam" feel is a turn off. In fact, that probably contributes to the majority of my negativity. It feels like its just a big thing to make money off people. I get what a lot of these people say about living your dreams, don't be a slave to the 9 to 5, but for people who are working hard and trying to support their families, this can often be taken as a real slap in the face and a disregard for hard work. Of course I wish i didn't have to work 9-5, but sometimes you have to, and this is also a blessing from Allah(swt) if he gives you the ability to work and get a halal sustenance and support your family. It really stings when someone just makes fun of this as if you are living a loser lifestyle and you havent lived your dreams by being a millionaire relaxing on the beaches of cancun getting served virgin pina coladas. i dont like hearing that coaching is going to help me achieve my dreams, but at the same time u see coaches running around left right and center also trying to get business. it just seems like *everything* is about the benjamins at the end of the day no matter how you look at it. 3) Little things annoy me. I had one person tell me they were going to schedule a free coaching session with me, and then never followed up. Never scheduled it. Never called. Totally forgot about it. I can't bring myself to be 'coached' if a person can't keep up a basic commitment such as that - in fact quite the opposite it makes me feel as if I should deliver reverse coaching about customer service and reliability. 4) I think that life coaching *can* serve as a benefit for some people. What bothers me though is when it is marketed as an end all be all solution for everyone and everything. Don't get me wrong - i DO understand the marketing tactic. But at the same time i feel that a little more transparency and honesty about the service would go a long way not only in dispelling myths, but also actually making it easier to attract people who may be debating using the service. Also what annoys me even more than that is the attitude that comes in response to someone who turns it down, or says something like "I can't afford it." This is usually met with a line of "oh you just dont want it bad enough" or "you dont care about your dreams" or "if you really wanted it, you would make a way for it" or "if you had to raise a million dollars or lose your first born you would do it" I'm sorry but getting life coaching will never be equivalent to a life or death situation, and I feel it's a bit insulting to me personally when people retort this way. Maybe I don't want it bad enough because of the reasons I mentioned above, or because I really can't afford it, or I have better things to do - or maybe its just not for me, or I don't need it. But instead of accepting this, people try to make you feel like YOU are a loser for feeling that way! It's like the neoconservative tablighi jamat guys who think you are a hopeless waste of the ummah if you aren't knocking door to door at a masjid in a different city every weekend. I do feel that these programs can offer benefit, and as I said some of my friends have done it AND they have gained benefit. But I still have a lot of reservations about it. I think if they are marketed differently and there is more transparency about what happens instead of this enigma of if you dont pay 3 grand, you'll never know what you're missing out on - then it might be better. Lastly, I want to clarify one point. These are my general observations. I'm not trying to be a hater or anything of that nature. I greatly respect Sh. Muhammad alShareef and the work he has done for the ummah in the west, and truth be told if i had the money I would probably go take the course with him to benefit from him. In fact, credit goes to some of his efforts (after the tawfeeq of Allah(swt)) that helped to be some turning points in my own life. I just feel though, is that often times the packaging can make or break something, and in this case i think the packaging is what is turning a lot of people off (and perhaps lack of information). |
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04-03-2009, 01:26 PM
Post: #5
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RE: I Hate Coaching
bint aadaam and LE, firstly, salaam alaykum and welcome to the site, I hope you guys come more often and post, insha'Allah =)
So if I were to sum up, so to speak, would it be fair to say the way they deal with you sort of insults your intelligence? Siraaj |
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04-04-2009, 01:16 PM
Post: #6
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RE: I Hate Coaching
(04-03-2009 01:26 PM)Siraaj Wrote: bint aadaam and LE, firstly, salaam alaykum and welcome to the site, I hope you guys come more often and post, insha'Allah =) wa alaykum assalaam yeah, pretty much, that's part of the reason. I understand it might be different from coach to coach, and if I was that interested I might've found a coach with a different attitude or approach- but I really wasn't into the service at all. Paying that much for a few email reminders (which I already get from close friends, alhamdulilah) and 2 calls per month weren't worth it in the end, for me. |
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04-05-2009, 01:18 PM
Post: #7
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RE: I Hate Coaching
I was on DL for a while and can honestly say I benefitted in may ways on the forums. I got a lot of ideas and some encouragement to fulfill some goals I had. I had one free coaching session which I enjoyed, but I would not continue it for financial reasons. That being said, the one person I had a session with was Shaykh Muhammad's sister, who like a lot. I was offered by others but didn't do it because I just didn't feel I wanted them as a coach.
That being said, I think coaching works for some people and not for others. I think that the people who hate it are just not part of the niche market. Obviously, the non-niche market gets annoyed when they are constantly targeted for marketing. I think coaching is for people who like or need a cheerleader but don't like to confide too much of themselves into their friends. They are motivated but struggle with consistency and would like to be held accountable but don't have someone else to do it or can't do for themself. As per DL i think there are a few personalilies there that are successful at what they do and really are naturally good coaches. BUt i think that something that is true about coaching that isn't really talked about -- you kind of naturally have to have something in you to be a good coach. You have to have a certain personality and way of communicating and connecting with people. I don't think anyone who goes to the seminar and just learns the material can be a coach. I think it would be cool if Shaykh Muhammad honed in on the really good coaches and weeded out the rest and made them his coaching team for DL. Ultimately though they're trying to do something as a job which is enjoyable and beneficial for others, which I think is admirable. |
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04-05-2009, 04:40 PM
Post: #8
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RE: I Hate Coaching
(04-03-2009 07:50 AM)LotaEnterprises Wrote: 1) The concept of coaching itself is still not clear. Why should I pay $xxx for someone to help me "achieve my goals." It just sounds like too much of a pie in the sky type of routine. I agree with the need for having external help to get you organized, to get you on track, to help you lucidly get your thoughts/projects organized, but I just have a hard time believing I should pay a significant chunk of money to someone to basically just give me general advice that I probably already know. I responded to your comment on MR's blog. Let me know if my response answer this question. (04-03-2009 02:33 AM)bint aadam Wrote: 1. the marketing was a lil too strong/pushy for me. (04-03-2009 07:50 AM)LotaEnterprises Wrote: 2) Spam Marketing. There. I said it in public. Every time I hear about this, I feel like I am getting spammed like a late night infomercial selling me junk real estate. Even down to the emails, website set up, marketing techniques - everything looks and feels exactly the same as those "make money quick" websites that rip you off. I agree with you. In truth, it's not marketing. Its called being "annoying". Marketing is understanding specifically what people want and value, and giving them that. In the past, the DiscoverU people who came out of the training approached the online Muslim community in a very rash and unprofessional manner. Its probably the reason why so few graduated. Similarly, I agree that if someone who hasn't already attained massive benefited and value from the personalities that are behind DiscoverU will certainly find the sales copy on the website pages of DiscoverU to seem like snake oil salesmen. Being a marketing professional myself and DiscoverU becoming a recent client of mine - this issue will inshaAllah change for the better with a focus towards giving more value to the Muslim community and touching their hearts before asking for their hand. (04-03-2009 07:50 AM)LotaEnterprises Wrote: I just feel though, is that often times the packaging can make or break something, and in this case i think the packaging is what is turning a lot of people off (and perhaps lack of information). One also has to look at, who the packaging is being offered to. An individual who's only received weekly emails gets offered to take a $3,000 seminar because they're one among 50,000 people on a list that they opted into, then they're probably not the specific individual that's being targeted :-) (04-03-2009 02:33 AM)bint aadam Wrote: 2. everyone sounded like sh muhammad. there can only be 1 sh muhammad... I didn't see enough originality. That is a fault on the part of the individual that's trying to graduate (and probably didn't graduate). One of the challenges of the coach is to differentiate themselves from the rest. If a coach approaches you, you should ask them:
Ask them sincerely. If they cannot differentiate themselves from the others, and cannot simply and concisely lay out the benefits to you and those around you then you're better off telling them to take a hike. I say this for your betterment so you get the best, and for the betterment of the coach so that they can serve you better. (04-03-2009 07:50 AM)LotaEnterprises Wrote: 3) Little things annoy me. I had one person tell me they were going to schedule a free coaching session with me, and then never followed up. Never scheduled it. Never called. Totally forgot about it. I can't bring myself to be 'coached' if a person can't keep up a basic commitment such as that - in fact quite the opposite it makes me feel as if I should deliver reverse coaching about customer service and reliability. You certainly should. - I bet that person never graduated. (04-03-2009 02:33 AM)bint aadam Wrote: 4. probably the most important factor for me, financially there were a few other priorities that I needed to take care of... so I couldn't afford the service anyway. (04-03-2009 07:50 AM)LotaEnterprises Wrote: 4) I think that life coaching *can* serve as a benefit for some people. What bothers me though is when it is marketed as an end all be all solution for everyone and everything. Don't get me wrong - i DO understand the marketing tactic. But at the same time i feel that a little more transparency and honesty about the service would go a long way not only in dispelling myths, but also actually making it easier to attract people who may be debating using the service... In truth, It's my assumption that you simply haven't seen the value. If my assumption is true, then I totally feel you. We as human beings choose to afford that which we see real tangible value in. When someone is pushing forth a service to us of any kind, sometimes they forget to communicate to us that they're inviting us to be a client. A client by definition is someone who is under your expert care, guidance and protection within your field. Before a company or individual can invite someone to be under their care, guidance and protection, they need to develop a relationship or at least some sort of bond or trust - which only comes after value has been given and benefit has been attained. (04-03-2009 07:50 AM)LotaEnterprises Wrote: I do feel that these programs can offer benefit, and as I said some of my friends have done it AND they have gained benefit. But I still have a lot of reservations about it. I think if they are marketed differently and there is more transparency about what happens instead of this enigma of if you dont pay 3 grand, you'll never know what you're missing out on - then it might be better. Great points. Some I agree with and some I disagree with :-) A question I'd like to ask you is - What specific benefits are you seeking? If a coach asked you to list five benefits you are looking for, what would those five benefits be? |
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04-05-2009, 05:11 PM
Post: #9
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RE: I Hate Coaching
alBaraa, salaam alaykum bro, welcome to the site =)
Since you're revamping the site, I hope you don't mind me pointing out this: http://www.thesixdayweekend.com/ http://discoverulife.com/ I was happy to read your response bro, alhamdulillaah, I can see from what you've said, either the company is evolving, or you're simply ahead of the game yourself. Before I continue, let me make clear that in starting this post, the goal is not hating on DL - instead, I want DL to REALLY know the impact it's had in the past - the brand it has established thus far. Why? Because as you know, people talk, talk, and talk, and they say the most negative things, and due to my (former) position within almaghrib, I tend to hear the brunt of it in Chicago, I've caught some of it at IlmSummit, online, and elsewhere. The problem is that by the time the shaykh or program manager hears anything, the information is sanitized and minimized. Poor information is a horrible way to make decisions. There's a lot of advice I gave one brother, but one thing I will say is that one thing people want from coaches is like you said, touching hearts before asking for a hand - but let's be clear, a free coaching session? This is like Microsoft offering me a demo version of their BETA software - a new coach working out the kinks in his or her buggy approach for free on my dime is not reaching out to my heart. Some people would like to see those DL skills put to good use in community service, helping the poor and indigent come out from where they are, rather than middle and middle upper class people who can afford the services. They also want to see your results - not just in your personal life, but rather, in helping others. Many are the people who are productive on their own, but do they have experience in raising up others? Can you demonstrate that? Did it happen in a coaching program? Or is this brand new? Finally, as you've noted above, coaching does need to be properly defined, and the language needs to be simplified, without the marketing hype behind it. Often times after prayers, a brother will pass by me and say, "Hey dude, I'm going to give you naseeha, but's its going to cost you $165, ok?" I think you need to clarify that you guys are all still muslim brothers and sisters, and if anyone wants to ask you for naseeha at any time on anything in an unstructured, non-coach like format, they can do so. Read the following link, skip the article (not relevant) and read some of the comments: http://www.suhaibwebb.com/blog/general/c...g-after-s/ In our own community, we have doctors whom we'll just randomly approach and say, I got this problem, what do you think? And they'll give us recommendations about what we can or should do, free of charge. The same with other professions. I think you need to make it clear that you're the same as well. Those are some thoughts, I have more, but I've said enough for now  Siraaj |
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04-06-2009, 12:46 AM
Post: #10
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RE: I Hate Coaching
alBaraa, salaam alaykum bro, welcome to the site =)
(04-05-2009 05:11 PM)Siraaj Wrote: Since you're revamping the site, I hope you don't mind me pointing out this: Don't get me wrong. I'm not doing the website (although they are in the process of revamping). I'm working on developing marketing material and media content that would be more "heart-touching" to say the least. Just keep an eye out on Leechon.com for stuff that get released. (04-05-2009 05:11 PM)Siraaj Wrote: Before I continue, let me make clear that in starting this post, the goal is not hating on DL - instead, I want DL to REALLY know the impact it's had in the past - the brand it has established thus far. Why? Because as you know, people talk, talk, and talk, and they say the most negative things, and due to my (former) position within almaghrib, I tend to hear the brunt of it in Chicago, I've caught some of it at IlmSummit, online, and elsewhere. I totally hear you. Believe it or not, sensei understands the fact that the first couple batches of people have sort of messed up the DiscoverU brand (as we all have noticed) and has changed up some of the processes that are in place to rectify that. (04-05-2009 05:11 PM)Siraaj Wrote: The problem is that by the time the shaykh or program manager hears anything, the information is sanitized and minimized. Poor information is a horrible way to make decisions. There's a lot of advice I gave one brother, but one thing I will say is that one thing people want from coaches is like you said, touching hearts before asking for a hand - but let's be clear, a free coaching session? There's a few things that need to be differentiated. The issue of the free session: As part of the graduation from DiscoverU Certification, each individual is required to give one free session to 50 unique people. That's the minimum to graudate. Does that minimum requirement limit the coach to do only one session. Absolutely not. (04-05-2009 05:11 PM)Siraaj Wrote: This is like Microsoft offering me a demo version of their BETA software - a new coach working out the kinks in his or her buggy approach for free on my dime is not reaching out to my heart. Some people would like to see those DL skills put to good use in community service, helping the poor and indigent come out from where they are, rather than middle and middle upper class people who can afford the services. I totally agree with you. I believe the issue is that when some of these new trainees come out, their focus is less on benefiting and supporting the individuals, and more on getting the "sale". This is why new systems have been put into place. Instead of aiming for 10 paid clients, the focus is on giving 50 sessions. After each of those sessions the clients fills out a 2 min survey evaluating the coach. Over the course of the 50, the coach will be notified as to who the one people that really benefitted from them. It's the responsibility of this coach to simply go back to those individuals, go deeper on what they want and then get a commitment from them. The Coaching fee with DiscoverU is in truth simply a form of commitment. There's a saying: "If you don't pay, then you don't pay attention". Oh, and you're absolutely right on the point of coaches shouldn't be limiting themselves to people who have money to pay because commitment comes in many different forms. It's up to the coach to lay out a commitment plant that works for the prospective client. That commitment can be in the form of a service, spending of time, money, assignment, challenge, or fear. - This just to name a few. (04-05-2009 05:11 PM)Siraaj Wrote: They also want to see your results - not just in your personal life, but rather, in helping others. Many are the people who are productive on their own, but do they have experience in raising up others? Can you demonstrate that? Did it happen in a coaching program? Or is this brand new? This is where the coach is suppose to be focusing. The training given is on raising people and leaders through coaching. Generally, someone who is fresh out of training, they need to start somewhere. As I see it, there are three phases for a coach's progress:
(04-05-2009 05:11 PM)Siraaj Wrote: Finally, as you've noted above, coaching does need to be properly defined, and the language needs to be simplified, without the marketing hype behind it. Often times after prayers, a brother will pass by me and say, "Hey dude, I'm going to give you naseeha, but's its going to cost you $165, ok?" If anyone approaches you in that manner, give them a solid smack upside their head and tell them that AlBaraa told you to do so (04-05-2009 05:11 PM)Siraaj Wrote: I think you need to clarify that you guys are all still muslim brothers and sisters, and if anyone wants to ask you for naseeha at any time on anything in an unstructured, non-coach like format, they can do so. I totally agree, especially since coaching isn't naseehah. (04-05-2009 05:11 PM)Siraaj Wrote: Read the following link, skip the article (not relevant) and read some of the comments: There's a lot of comments. Which ones do you want me to look at specifically? (04-05-2009 05:11 PM)Siraaj Wrote: In our own community, we have doctors whom we'll just randomly approach and say, I got this problem, what do you think? And they'll give us recommendations about what we can or should do, free of charge. The same with other professions. I think you need to make it clear that you're the same as well. There was a similar question, I posted the response on MR's blog. The difference b/w other professions and coaching is an issue of leading from the front vs. leading from the back. Generally, if someone has a question or two, I don't see why the coach wouldn't answer it. It would be a shame if the coach didn't. At the same time, the coach needs to be attentive to whether or not this person's issue is something that can be resolved with a simply re framing of the issue. If not, and it would require the coaches time, then its only fair that they have a session together. The original question that was posed by Lot Enterprises was: “how am i to believe that someone who took a 1 week class or 2 week class can suddenly help me with weight loss, finances, family, and ibadah? moreover, how is a coach supposed to help me with something like family if he himself is not married?” In a situtation of helping you with family when the coach himself isn’t married… If that coach is is leading from the FRONT, he will not be able to help with any specific advice b/c the journey that specific coach has taken isn’t necessarily the journey you wish to take, therefor if they pull you in a specific direction, you will resist and ultimately get annoyed and possibly dislike the individual that is pulling you. A coach who is leading from the BACK, will not tell you what to do or even pull you in any specific direction. — – This person will push you from behind by calling your bluffs and help you remove the mental obstacles you have in front of you, help you figure out the root of your issue(s), help you reframe certain perspectives by asking very strategic questions. The coach leading from the back doesn’t have to necessarily have to be where the client wants to be in terms of goals, rather the coach should be able to understands the clients language. Whether they’re speaking from a language of success or a language of failure. The coach’s job is to pay attention to the client and be acutely attentive to what they’re saying and from that move them to physiology and psychology of excellence which ultimately lead the client to move towards positive action, which ultimately move them towards their goals and objective… …this is the major difference b/w leading from the back vs leading from the front. Listening to advice, lectures, books, experts, etc - (aka leading from the front) - will not change anything b/c the person themself (client) will have to want to move in a specific direction before they’re open to accepting any sort of information. As coaches, we’re not giving you advice, lecture, etc. We’re getting you focused on your your dreams by asking you strategic questions that will make you aware of whether or not your dreams are ultimately connected to Allah-swt. Ultimately, coaching isn’t gaining of information - its simply an experience of empowerment and results conditioning that’s designed to pump your balanced life to a level you would never have been able to do on your own in such a dramatic way and in such short amount of time. – My question to you is, what are your dreams and how can I best support you in getting there? 
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