I Hate Coaching

[Siraaj]

albaraa Wrote:A coach who is leading from the BACK, will not tell you what to do or even pull you in any specific direction. — – This person will push you from behind by calling your bluffs and help you remove the mental obstacles you have in front of you, help you figure out the root of your issue(s), help you reframe certain perspectives by asking very strategic questions.

All well and good, this is what I know of coaching as well, and try to explain as well to others who don't understand the concept. But if I might be their representative in this, here's the question:

You've been just trained for one week, you're fresh outta DL - please tell me not only the theory, but an example in which you, the coach looking for my business, led someone from the back successfully in a matter in which you had no qualification. Explain what obstacles this person had, and what techniques you used to help this person overcome their obstacles. Elaborate on your method so that I might better appreciate the value of what you do (meaning, will I find this to be valuable).

And...go!

Siraaj

[Yasser Zia]

As salaamu alaikum wa rahmatullah,

Siraaj hows it going akhi--hows them shady halls? lol. Jazakallahu khairun for creating this forum and site, I've enjoyed reading ma sha Allah. I think what works about your posts is that u are not regurgitating what u read in some book, u are writing about your life. Its authentic, its your own voice.

I think people can detect authenticity in a person. Call it 'blink' or intuition, authenticity is in a persons aura. And authenticity is what separates an experienced coach from a newbie. Realize its going to take a newbie coach a bit of time and practice to find their 'own voice'.

Siraaj I'll give you an example. I was coaching a bro who when we talked about the 'life wheel', he had a big fat ZERO in family and finances. He makes 6 figures. has children, a mortgage, and carries debts.

After some initial questioning it surfaced that the bros issues were inter-related. You have to dig to figure out whats going on... "why are you at a 0 in family?" "bc I am not saving for my childrens education." "nothing?" "yes, nothing". "where is your money going?" "I dont know... debts, mortgage etc."

So, he was having a domino effect. The finances was making him feel like a bad father. So first step is to resolve the family issue--he was not abusing his children or malnourishing them, the zero was in his head.

"Do your children love you?" "yes" "Is your wife happy with you?" "yes" "what about your parents, are they happy with you as their son?" "yes alhumdulillah" "So, can you reframe this, so that a '10' in family--instead of requiring you to have a kid savings fund, can you switch up the criteria?" "ok, sure... a 10 in family can mean that I am doing something for my kids future" "and what sorts of things can that be?" "teaching them quran, taking them on meaningful trips" "just thinking about that, picturing it, does that make you feel better?" "yes, alhumdulillah" (brother in tears by this moment).

so.. issue 1 resolved, he released himself from the pressure of having a quantified result ie. 10k savings per kid, to reframing it so that as long as he is doing 'something' then he is giving his kids their haq, and the finances for their education he puts his trust in Allah.

That opened the gateway for issue 2--finances. 15 mins later he had an action plan, a resource he was going to contact, and he was so excited to take action the promised that he would give me his brand spanking new cell phone (Nokia E71) if he didnt take action byt the deadline we agreed upon.

Siraaj, I dont have children who are 6 and 8 years old. I dont earn 6 figures nor do I have a mortgage. But via guided questioning, basic techniques, and by the tawfiq of Allah I was able to help this bro overcome an emotional 'bind' and he moved himself into action.

Thats what a coach does... you dont "pay" $x a coach to do abc. You HIRE a coach for yourself, to leverage the most out of your self, and to keep yourself in check. Its not nasihah-- the coach doesnt say 'u should fast if u want to get married'. Instead he asks 'do u agree it is only Allah who can help you get married?' and you say 'yes', and then he askls 'what do u think u can do to earn the pleasure of Allah today?' and then you say 'maybe I can fast'...

I'm out,
wasalaams.

p.s. br. LotaPani... akhi do u mean to tell me you do not beleive it is actually "Sh. Walied Basyouni" emailing you to especially invite to you to the next AlMaghrib class?!

[AlBaraa]

I couldn't have said it better than Yasser

[Siraaj]

Salaam alaykum Yasser,

Thanks for keeping up with the site and and welcome to the boards I appreciate you stopping by and offering your input. Insha'Allah, very soon, I'm going to write a post about this topic because I think there's a discussion to be held between those who are trying to help, and those who feel there are issues.

I appreciate your response as well, and I appreciate you sharing your results regarding the brother - one thing people will also ask is, "Can you finish the story and let us know where the brother is now, after having gone through that coaching session? Has he maintained what he learned later?"

I also have to return back to my original question on behalf of the naysayers - how is it that someone who has no experience in coaching others and / or getting positive results can tell them, "I'll help you achieve your goals faster." For example, you now have a number of new coaches out - seems like the old 10 paid clients minimum to graduate is no longer the requirement (alhamdulillaah), but at the same time, I'm not aware of whether or not the trainees receive any sort of practical "hands-on" training with people who have real problems.

Now someone might say, inexperienced people are hired all the time to take on new positions as older experienced head out the door. But here's the thing - the employer trains you on the job. In this case, the new coach is training himself on the job at my expense. $200 for one hour of someone's time ain't no joke

Have you looked over the International Coaching Academy's program? Check out this link if you haven't:

http://icoachacademy.com/fees/fees.html

You'll note that part of their program is coaching practicums. You'll have a person training live in different techniques, questions, answers, and so on. There's A LOT of free material and sample classes on that site.

So back to the question, how can a new grad make a claim with no experience? Should they not have experience as a coach (free or reduced price sessions, like 3 months worth at least) to start before charging regular rates?

Siraaj

[Yasser Zia]

Walaikum as salaam wa rahmatullah,

From the website discoverucertification.com "You'll get 2 free sessions with one of the astounding DiscoverU LifeCoaches"

In this certification sh. Muhammad and Noor made the curriculum specific to phone coaching.
- They had several practice sessions where the trainees paired up and coached each other. Belal can u confirm the exact number of the breakout sessions?
- There were 2 real live sessions demonstrated by experienced coaches (1 for bros, 1 for sisters).

Is a few practice sessions and demonstrations sufficient? Well, sufficient for what?
- To apply the material on ourselves and reach immediate results?--absolutely not.
- To familiarize a person with the 'scripts and flow' of a coaching call, enough so that they can get out there and start helping others? absolutely YES.

I will check out that link, jazakallahu khairun.

I also agree with your point about reduced fees for the newbie coaches, and from the looks of it so does DiscoverU bc the experienced/elite/premium coaches cost almost double the newbs.

wasalaams,

(04-06-2009 12:44 PM)Siraaj Wrote:  Salaam alaykum Yasser,

Thanks for keeping up with the site and and welcome to the boards I appreciate you stopping by and offering your input. Insha'Allah, very soon, I'm going to write a post about this topic because I think there's a discussion to be held between those who are trying to help, and those who feel there are issues.

I appreciate your response as well, and I appreciate you sharing your results regarding the brother - one thing people will also ask is, "Can you finish the story and let us know where the brother is now, after having gone through that coaching session? Has he maintained what he learned later?"

I also have to return back to my original question on behalf of the naysayers - how is it that someone who has no experience in coaching others and / or getting positive results can tell them, "I'll help you achieve your goals faster." For example, you now have a number of new coaches out - seems like the old 10 paid clients minimum to graduate is no longer the requirement (alhamdulillaah), but at the same time, I'm not aware of whether or not the trainees receive any sort of practical "hands-on" training with people who have real problems.

Now someone might say, inexperienced people are hired all the time to take on new positions as older experienced head out the door. But here's the thing - the employer trains you on the job. In this case, the new coach is training himself on the job at my expense. $200 for one hour of someone's time ain't no joke

Have you looked over the International Coaching Academy's program? Check out this link if you haven't:

http://icoachacademy.com/fees/fees.html

You'll note that part of their program is coaching practicums. You'll have a person training live in different techniques, questions, answers, and so on. There's A LOT of free material and sample classes on that site.

So back to the question, how can a new grad make a claim with no experience? Should they not have experience as a coach (free or reduced price sessions, like 3 months worth at least) to start before charging regular rates?

Siraaj

[AlBaraa]

(04-06-2009 01:18 PM)Yasser Zia Wrote:  In this certification sh. Muhammad and Noor made the curriculum specific to phone coaching.
- They had several practice sessions where the trainees paired up and coached each other. Belal can u confirm the exact number of the breakout sessions?
- There were 2 real live sessions demonstrated by experienced coaches (1 for bros, 1 for sisters).

Yup, there were two live sessions by the coaches, and there were 2 break out sessions in which we did sessions on each other as well as several other breakout sessions in which we applied some of the more advanced techniques on each other as well - A total of about 5 or 6 breakout sessions for practice I believe.

[Siraaj]

Clarify this to me - are these sessions practice sessions, or are they sessions in which the coaches are coaching each other through their own real life issues?

Siraaj

[Arshada]

as salaam alikuim

I went through the first DL Coaching program.

So many good points being discussed so I'll comment on some of them:

Marketing/sales approach of the first two classes and their effects

AlBaraa mentioned that the DL Brand was messed up by the first two classes because of their approach on getting paid clients. From day one, I didn't like the criterion set down to graduate. We were just trained to become life coaches, not sales people. Why did the first 2 classes' students do what they did ? They were given tips on these techniques in class & were encouraged from the early graduates. It is no surprise that all of them made the same 'mistakes' of marketing/sales. Some people who were good coaches, and didn't conform to such sales techniques, were let go of because they didn't meet the graduation requirement. I talked to another coach, who graduated, about this point and felt that this was true. He mentioned Br. Zia of such a person.

Also, later on, when I was coaching and I knew the 2nd class had finished their training, they did the same techniques and I was at the receiving end of the emails. I know how it looks. It was well intended but looked real bad. I can really blame them, they only ran through the obstacle course that was laid out for them.

I am glad they have changed the graduation requirement.

On Coaching

Coaching works great though, for anyone and I'd challenge anyone on that. It can be confused by some Muslims by marketing approach of the early classes. I have done it for people from all walks of life, including here in Egypt. It works for anyone who wants to make progress in any part of their life.

To Coaches

The need for Muslim coaching is still there. If you want to coach & approach the coaching business from another angle, do so. The market is huge & not limited to one company. Nothing improves quality when there are two competing companies.

To Past/Present/Future Clients

If you were bothered by the marketing/sales techniques, I'd like to personally apologize if you received any of that from me and any of my fellow coaches. With that said, my clients have benefited and have made faster progress with coaching. These are their own words.

[bint aadam]

(04-05-2009 04:40 PM)AlBaraa Wrote:  

(04-03-2009 02:33 AM)bint aadam Wrote:  4. probably the most important factor for me, financially there were a few other priorities that I needed to take care of... so I couldn't afford the service anyway.

(04-03-2009 07:50 AM)LotaEnterprises Wrote:  4) I think that life coaching *can* serve as a benefit for some people. What bothers me though is when it is marketed as an end all be all solution for everyone and everything. Don't get me wrong - i DO understand the marketing tactic. But at the same time i feel that a little more transparency and honesty about the service would go a long way not only in dispelling myths, but also actually making it easier to attract people who may be debating using the service...

...I'm sorry but getting life coaching will never be equivalent to a life or death situation, and I feel it's a bit insulting to me personally when people retort this way. Maybe I don't want it bad enough because of the reasons I mentioned above, or because I really can't afford it, or I have better things to do - or maybe its just not for me, or I don't need it.

In truth, It's my assumption that you simply haven't seen the value. If my assumption is true, then I totally feel you.

We as human beings choose to afford that which we see real tangible value in. When someone is pushing forth a service to us of any kind, sometimes they forget to communicate to us that they're inviting us to be a client.

A client by definition is someone who is under your expert care, guidance and protection within your field.

Before a company or individual can invite someone to be under their care, guidance and protection, they need to develop a relationship or at least some sort of bond or trust - which only comes after value has been given and benefit has been attained.

this is where I take issue. and I've gotten this response from several coaches. why can't someone genuinely not afford something, financially speaking? this isn't the first time I've heard this, I've heard this response from several life coaches. why does "I can't afford this" translate to "I don't see value in this?" I think it's offensive when someone results to twisting words and assuming they know the intention of the potential client when they decline the service. Why can't they be taken for their word? If someone can't afford to keep their home, is it because they don't see value in it? (as if they'd rather be living on the streets...) I never really understood this. Maybe someone can explain.

Jazaakum Allah khair for the responses.

[Siraaj]

(04-08-2009 02:50 AM)bint aadam Wrote:  

(04-05-2009 04:40 PM)AlBaraa Wrote:  

(04-03-2009 02:33 AM)bint aadam Wrote:  4. probably the most important factor for me, financially there were a few other priorities that I needed to take care of... so I couldn't afford the service anyway.

(04-03-2009 07:50 AM)LotaEnterprises Wrote:  4) I think that life coaching *can* serve as a benefit for some people. What bothers me though is when it is marketed as an end all be all solution for everyone and everything. Don't get me wrong - i DO understand the marketing tactic. But at the same time i feel that a little more transparency and honesty about the service would go a long way not only in dispelling myths, but also actually making it easier to attract people who may be debating using the service...

...I'm sorry but getting life coaching will never be equivalent to a life or death situation, and I feel it's a bit insulting to me personally when people retort this way. Maybe I don't want it bad enough because of the reasons I mentioned above, or because I really can't afford it, or I have better things to do - or maybe its just not for me, or I don't need it.

In truth, It's my assumption that you simply haven't seen the value. If my assumption is true, then I totally feel you.

We as human beings choose to afford that which we see real tangible value in. When someone is pushing forth a service to us of any kind, sometimes they forget to communicate to us that they're inviting us to be a client.

A client by definition is someone who is under your expert care, guidance and protection within your field.

Before a company or individual can invite someone to be under their care, guidance and protection, they need to develop a relationship or at least some sort of bond or trust - which only comes after value has been given and benefit has been attained.

this is where I take issue. and I've gotten this response from several coaches. why can't someone genuinely not afford something, financially speaking? this isn't the first time I've heard this, I've heard this response from several life coaches. why does "I can't afford this" translate to "I don't see value in this?" I think it's offensive when someone results to twisting words and assuming they know the intention of the potential client when they decline the service. Why can't they be taken for their word? If someone can't afford to keep their home, is it because they don't see value in it? (as if they'd rather be living on the streets...) I never really understood this. Maybe someone can explain.

Jazaakum Allah khair for the responses.

Salaam alaykum bint aadaam,

One point you might hear often from them is that if you really needed a million dollars right away, would you get it? The answer is yes, you'd do what it takes. It depends on priority and urgency. Their point is that if you transferred the same sort of priority and urgency to all your goals, and made them a part of that plan, you'd get where you want to faster.

My response to that is twofold:

1. If I could do that, I don't need a coach anymore =)
2. But putting aside point #1, perhaps the reason I don't see the value for myself is because you have failed to convince me of the value of what you're calling to, and this also calls into question your ability to motivate me further and "lead from the back" for me, so to speak.

So by virtue of having not convinced me, you have disqualified yourself as being my coach.

And the final blow? Were you truly concerned about my well-being and helping me reach my goals, you'd go out and better yourself, and then come back and try again =)

See, two can play the, "You don't care enough game," which is why I think the criticism of this practice (the "you don't care enough" tactic) is valid. And I appreciate it when coaches come on here and admit that some of the marketing practices were less than stellar and destructive to the DL Brand and the benefit it's trying to bring (and I know as a former coaching client of Shaykh Muhammad and member of DL, it's very obvious once you're in the program).

Siraaj